Ryan Jore interviews Paulie Campbell, a Helena-based personal trainer with a master’s degree in Nutritional Sciences and 20 years of coaching experience. Paulie discusses his transition from bodybuilding to endurance running, emphasizing the importance of maintaining strength and mobility. He highlights the need for a balanced training program that includes both strength and endurance exercises, such as mobility work, single-joint movements, and rotational training. Paulie also stresses the importance of addressing weaknesses, like foot strength and posterior chain exercises, to prevent injuries.

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Ryan Jore 0:15 Hi guys, welcome back to Strength Stories with Jore. Today we have on Helena based personal trainer, Paulie Campbell. Paulie, welcome to the show.

Paulie Campbell 0:23 Thanks, Ryan. It’s, I think we have a plan on this for some time, and we glad we could connect.

Ryan Jore 0:28 So I know you’re on the previous podcast or on the previous granted podcast, but for this new one, could you just give a quick intro to your background?

Paulie Campbell 0:36 Yeah, my master’s degree is in Nutritional Sciences, and I’ve been a coach for two decades, and I own and run a semi private training facility in Montana city called the bar, and I’ll spare you all the in between the line details. Here we are.

Ryan Jore 0:56 So today we’re going to talk about strength training for endurance athletes, and I think yours is just a really good example for this, which is why I want is why I wanted to bring you on. Because obviously you’ve got, you said, history and back in bodybuilding, stupid strong. And then what maybe, is it, three years ago, you kind of started getting a little more into endurance. Is it that long already?

Paulie Campbell 1:14 No, it’s about a year and a half. I think.

Ryan Jore 1:14 Okay, and everything past 2020, I’m just like, I can’t remember any details.

Paulie Campbell 1:14 Yeah, man, it’s a blur.

Ryan Jore 1:14 So you’re just good example of, like, how, again, we’ve, you know, strength changes to a degree, but for most part, how you’ve continued to stay really strong, you’ve kept on muscle mass, and you’re doing just stupid distances on these races. And do you want to give the audience, what’s your next potential one that you’re training for us.

Paulie Campbell 1:40 Yeah. So before I give you that, it’s important to know that I did compete as a natural, drug free bodybuilder for the last it was like 17 years or so, and I competed professionally as well. And so that kind of sets the stage a little bit more on my end, more information that might be helpful. And thanks for bringing it up, Ryan. And so about a year and a half I got, you know, kind of important for the topic, I suppose, about a year and a half ago I got into to running. One of my clients, you know, asked me if I want to do this race. Coincidentally, this Sunday is a half marathon in Missoula. It is a road one. I’ve been mostly trail running. And the kicker here is I was supposed to, this was supposed to be my first half marathon last year that I was training for with my client, and I got food poisoning that morning, and I ate at a pizza place. I’m not going to name names, but, yeah, it was. It was super miserable. And yeah, so that’s there you have it.

Ryan Jore 2:41 Yeah, I still remember I said you messaged me on that where, all sudden, we’re just gonna change your training, which, again, kind of surprising for the audience is really, like, there really isn’t that much that we change. It’s funny, I was actually just talking with client today because she was asking me about, like, postpartum training and how we change things for that. And I was explaining to people like, I think a lot of times people think like, it’s like, it’s like, we just take down the board and you just change every single thing, and people’s programming, and honestly, for most of our program said, like, 90% of the stuff is the same. Like, I kind of use the example of, like, a pasta sauce. Like, it’s still a pasta sauce, but we just might put in a different amount of basil or different amount of oregano. Like, it’s still, at the end of the day, it’s still a sauce. Like, we’re still training to get stronger, but yeah, like, we’re obviously going to reduce volume. There’s slight areas we might focus on a little bit more than if you were not training for an endurance sport. But ultimately, like, the basic sauce is still the same thing. It’s just a little bit tailored. It’s like that 10% that really makes the difference.

Paulie Campbell 3:36 Yeah, absolutely. And you’re still pressing, you’re still pushing, you’re still row, you’re pulling, you’re hinging, you’re doing all those movements. And what was interesting about it is it was kind of hard for me to let go of that some of the ingredients in that, in that sauce that you’re talking about, specifically, like with barbell back squats, I haven’t done those for years. I’ve really super great equipment to accommodate for that, like pendulum squats, etc. So it was an easy switch. And then, like, conventional deadlifts, that kind of is, like my bread and butter movement. I was really good at it, and we just actually started incorporating them back in at my request. But the difference here is, is, I’m not going to be pulling, you know, 4-5-600 pounds anymore. It’s, it’s like, like, maybe four or five. And what I’ve really enjoyed about the transition with some of those ingredients is has been, you know, I’m incorporating more mobility into my workout, so they’re not separate workouts. They’re incorporated as part of the exercises, which is important for runners. Because, you know, anybody really, but runners specifically, because we’re only training in like, one plane of motion, and we want to focus on hip, internal and external health. So it’s like making sure in the transverse and the sagittal and the frontal, all planes of motion are going to be beneficial, and a lot of single, single joint, not single joint. Excuse me. And like, single arm or single leg movements, which has been amazing.

 Ryan Jore 5:07 Yeah, I think a lot of runners Miss that’s like, yeah, you still need some lateral stuff. And especially for you, like, given that they said, a lot of your stuff is trail based. A lot of trail stuff is you’re cutting to the side, and you’re constantly having to go left, right, left, right. So we still need some of that lateral stuff. And like, adductors and like, so both sides of our hips really need to be addressed. I think a lot of people again, yeah, they think like, Oh, I’m gonna do lunges that’ll cover me. And it’s like, I mean, lunges are awesome, and it’s still gonna be one of our, you said one of our bread and butters, but we want to go all directions.

Paulie Campbell 5:32 Yeah and think about like, doing like, this is a great example, I think, anyway, and you jog my memory, Ryan, but think about doing like, a bunch of yard work that you have in you haven’t done in a long time. Like your body reacts in a different way. Obviously, yard work could be, you know, several hours, so the dose is relatively high. But you know that can apply to training in different planes of motion. We get comfortable doing the same thing, which I think is important to get comfortable in a training program and evaluating as you go, and making adjustments to either exercises, etc, to help complement, you know, like, for example, I had some hamstring issues, and I, you know, then I had Some distal hamstring tendonitis going on, and so I don’t care what sport you’re in, or even if your general population, you can have these little nooks and crannies that you forgot about that kind of went dormant, kind of come to life again. And it’s not that you’re doing anything incorrectly, it just might be that it’s bringing out a weakness that needs to be addressed. And I think I had a few of those, and that’s primarily why I switched to after that hamstring issue we were dealing with for quite a while last year, Ryan, I switched to trail running, which was a significant improvement in the training program, and which what I believed years ago, when I was training people for endurance. I was not, I was like anti cardio, unless I was playing sports. But typical bro bodybuilder mentality, I suppose, I think I went so far off on a tangent, I forgot I was what I was going to say for a second there.

Paulie Campbell 7:14 I’m just kind of, kind of avoiding cardio.

Paulie Campbell 7:16 Yeah, like, the the rep range, right? Because our muscles don’t know rep ranges. But I think it’s safe to assume the higher reps you’re going with, you know, the wider the weight, and with endurance, you’re already getting that high repetition on the trail, if you’re running. So to do like, 100 walking lunges is it’s just kind of, you’re not really improving anything.

Ryan Jore 7:42 Yeah.

Paulie Campbell 7:42 You know, if you want to get stronger, we have to give the tissue a reason to get stronger. And so if you’re listening to this, take a look at how you’re training. And if you’re typically training, I’ll say that 15 plus rep range, maybe 12 for some exercises, and you just feel like you’re constantly burnt out, like because that’s still a ton of volume after you’ve done some of your endurance training for the week. And I I mountain bike as well, quite a bit. I have three bikes. And so throwing that into the mix, I know many athletes that are endurance athletes, they are multi faceted in that that capacity, but change your rep range up, change your load up. If you change the load you’re using, you will be forced to change your rep range. That’s the easiest.

Ryan Jore 8:22 Like you were saying too, on how one of the reasons that we incorporate a lot of that load, or the like lateral work and stuff, is it says it’s bases we’re already not crossing off. So if you’re already crossing that base off by doing, like you said, you know, you’re running 20, 30, 40, miles a week, like, I doubt your weak point comes from doing, you know, 10 to 20 on lunges. Like, it’s probably gonna be more like, hey, let’s do a safety bar. Let’s load these things up for, like, five to eight. Like, that’s gonna make a real difference. And that’s where we’re gonna see that carry over to hills and stuff like that. Yeah. Ultimately, it’s like finding what we’re not already addressing and filling that bucket. Like, said, you’re already putting plenty into that. Like, oh, I guess it was, yeah. Coming back to the volume thing, most people don’t get that beat up by heavy weights in terms of, like, recovery costs for the most part. As long as you know, we’re not maxing every week or whatever, but doing like, say, heavy threes and fives on deadlifts. Like, yes, has a fatigue cost, but it’s not the same as like, say, doing like, eights and 10s like that volume is where we just see people like you said, it’s kind of that, I hate to say, like, adrenal fatigue. Like, people reference that, but like that, kind of that feeling that people attribute with that, where they just feel wiped out. It’s like that typically comes from a lot of volume. So if we’re already getting a ton of volume on the road, like, the last thing we need to be doing is like five sets of 15 on like, four different leg exercises.

Paulie Campbell 9:29 Right. You’re kind of skirting underneath that, that radar when you like, for example, our deadlifts, it’s like one to two sets. That’s like. So full disclosure, I went from working out like and I made a post about this, like a month ago. I was comparing my current physique, which is like 20 pounds later than was last year. And I compared, it’s a side by side of two front double biceps, and one was like eight weeks out from World Championships in 2020 and I almost look very like you can tell I have. Lost any muscle size. And so for literally, the past two years, I’ve been I went from like four to five days a week. The last two years, I’ve been doing like two to three consistently, which is also super refreshing, because then I can spend time doing things outside, and they really balance each other. And the, you know, I still train intense, but it’s not, I don’t want to say it’s not hypertrophy, because there are some hypertrophy variables in there. And I’m, you know, one of the things that I had to play with is the dosage of or the mileage, rather, the dose of either biking and running. And I’ve been fortunate enough to like because I’ve coached 1000s of people, and Ryan, you’ve coached 1000s of people as well. Like, I’m able to kind of pay attention to the data points that I’m going through, and what I’m getting at is, like, I am really good at climbing. Whether I’m running, I typically won’t run, I’ll power climb. And there was a race I did, like, a month ago, and there was this one head wall, and I think I power climbed past a dozen people, which was awesome. And I attribute that to my posterior strength, which we continuously hammer. And that’s a huge area of neglect for females and males. They have, I’ll call them National Geographic asses. They’re just flat pancake asses like for real, and their hamstrings. And I said that because I just wanted to see that on this podcast, which is great, and because Ryan doesn’t laugh, he’s emotionless. It’s kind of funny, but building that posterior strength, and it’s, you know, people that have full back issues, core is important. I’m not suggesting it isn’t, but it’s generally a lack of strength in their hamstrings and glutes, primarily glutes, both glute med, glute minimus, internal, external rotation. Like, it’s just been really cool to kind of be exposed to a different world. But apply these things to myself, because I do have a higher percentage of people that I train regularly that are involved in community.

Ryan Jore 11:59 You know, it’s funny too, because I’m trying to remember, I know we’ve used this for you on push ups, but it’s funny when you reference back to, like, going up the hills and stuff, one of the things that I found most beneficial with my clients for that like Hill endurance is doing, like, the high intensity, continuous training. And a lot of times we’ll do that with either, like, safety bar lunges or walking lunges or something like that. And it’s funny because it seems like it would be similar to, like, to and say, like, you know, 10 to 20 or whatever, and just this miserable hard set, what I find people actually get more carryover from is we do, let’s say it’s like body weight walking lunges. They do like one rep every three to five seconds. So it’s actually dramatically easier than doing those, like, really hard sets. But we stretch it out for like, five minutes, eight minutes. Joel Jameson has people going as high as, like, 20 minutes outside of, like, one sadistic mountain climber I train. I’ve never train. I’ve never really pushed any people that far, because people just don’t like it mentally. What’s funny is that becomes a form of almost like aerobic training, even though it’s not true aerobic that’s weirdly enough I find carries over more than, like, heavy sets of like 10 to 15, like, I feel like we do our best work, either doing like five to eight, like, getting het really heavy, or we go super light and just go for extended periods. It’s, it’s, it’s almost too easy, but it just seems to carry over a lot more. And probably it’s more to do with the fact that it just doesn’t generate nearly the amount of fatigue that, like a heavy set of eight of 10 to 15 does.

Paulie Campbell 13:13 Yeah, and they’re like, it’s basically a cluster set. You know, we’ve done exactly for one rep every 30 to 60 seconds, and they start at 30 seconds, and as I move through the prescribed rep count, I might gear more toward the minute by the, you know, the second half of the set, or the second half of the cluster series.

Ryan Jore 13:31 It’s like I was just telling someone today on this like, most people make their hard training too easy, and they’re easy training too hard, and that’s kind of a dichotomy there. Like, yeah, like, when we’re going hard and heavy, like, I want you like pushing it close the edge, but I said a lot of our training, a lot of that volumes, can be built up with really easy work. Again, going back to endurance, you look at like Olympic marathoners, like 80% of their work is in that very easy range, like they’re not pushing themselves at like eight to nine intensity that often, but when they do, they go for it.

Paulie Campbell 13:57 Right.

Ryan Jore 13:57 First, I just wanted to go over, and we’ve already addressed some of these to small degrees, but looking at like areas that we want to address and, like, really train hard for a runner again, we already kind of went over, going over, like, those laterals, so getting, like, the sides of the hips and groin muscles. But one of the ones that we’ve played a lot with with your training is just foot strength. Is, you know, like, if you have a weak foot, that’s going to tend to, like, collapse in, then we’re leading to, like, knee stuff. It’s leading to hip stuff. And that’s where almost never, when we see those knee issues, is it actually a true knee issue, unless you got, like, actually hip with a baseball bat, like, it’s usually coming from somewhere up or down this chain. And I think we’ve noticed a big difference for you just doing, like, calf raise work, like floating heel split squats, stuff like that. That’s still training your legs, but it’s making your foot do a lot of work at the same time.

Paulie Campbell 14:41 Yeah, the voting split squats are absolutely terrible in a good way, of course, right? Yeah, I think. And that’s one thing we know as coaches working with clients, just in the, you know, general population, the chain of command is important. Everything starts from the ground up. So typically, if somebody has the new. Hip issue, you look at the foot to see what’s happening. Sometimes it’s, you know, an orthotic, but that, you know, it also helps with my dexterity on the trail, because I’m spending a lot of time on the balls of my feet when I’m running, especially over like obstacles, like rocks and logs and streams and all the stuff that could possibly be in the way on trail, and so that’s been, been super helpful. Also, posterior strength, rear delts, upper traps, traps, postural stuff, yeah, pretty much the entire backside. Like, it’s all important. But if you think about the amount of time you spent through, like a half marathon might be two hours, you know, 12k you know, might be little less, whatever. What have you want to make sure you have good posture. And I feel like I’m 200 like eight pounds, so I’m never like my objective is not to be a world record runner here, it’s to improve my cardiovascular system and push myself in a different way than I have for the last 17 years, while still protocols. And it’s, yeah, so I think-

Ryan Jore 16:07 Well, you don’t want to be that, like, sad, droopy runner, like, you see those people at the end, and they’re just, like, hunched over, because all their I mean, everything is just shot by that point.

Paulie Campbell 16:15 Yeah, it’s like, I think I have too much muscle mass that could be a detriment, right? But, like, I’m not going to purposefully lose lean body mass to participate in endurance. I’m going to purposely dose myself with resistance training, cardiovascular to make myself the, you know, improve myself as much as possible. At the frame, I have.

Ryan Jore 16:35 Another one that’s similar, because this can tie in with some of the lateral work, but just getting in more rotational work. I mean, obviously running is in itself a rotational sport. You are constantly turning, and that’s where stuff like, again, planks help side. Planks are nice, but we want to get something, whether it’s like chops, or we’re doing some sort of, like landmine rotation or something like that, that’s going to be a little more, I hate to say running specific, because we’re never going to actually running is actual running specific, but stuff that’s training similar patterns for that.

Paulie Campbell 17:04 Yeah and if you think about like your QL’s, you know, how much rotation, like, how much tension those are under, and what your arms are doing, you know, and you’re so as, like, transverse abdominis, like all these hip flexors, right? Like all these things were, were not walking like robots. And I think I see it a lot in females. They have so as issues, or what have you from, from ones that have been participating for a long time, and that’s debilitating, like that. That’s, it’s terrible. So is your, I mean, any injury is, is I wouldn’t, like say I’d rather have one over the other, because also sucks, which I’ve had.

Ryan Jore 17:45 See, I really, I just wanted you to address the importance of that on camera, because then maybe make sure that that’s an exercise you don’t skip in your programming when-

Paulie Campbell 17:52 Oh, definitely not, yeah.

Ryan Jore 17:53 It’s like, when you when you do skip an exercise, like, weird, he always skips the rotational AB stuff at the end of the workout.

Paulie Campbell 18:01 So to be to be clear, like, I do go back and do them most of the time.

Ryan Jore 18:07 I know,

Paulie Campbell 18:07 But I do, yeah.

Ryan Jore 18:09 There was a period where I was literally putting in your notes, like, Don’t skip your damn QL stuff.

Paulie Campbell 18:14 Yeah, no, definitely. I do see that.

Ryan Jore 18:16 I know

Paulie Campbell 18:17 I always like when you post videos of Paul Carter, because I know it’s like him doing exercise that guy’s a he’s a human child, a man child on social media.

Ryan Jore 18:28 Last one I wanted to put in there for muscles that we address, and this ties in with the rotation work. But his lats, like people don’t think enough about the lats as a running muscle, but that is part of what’s creating that trunk rotation. I always try to reference with my clients who are runners, there was a game what’s crazy? It’s the Prezi speed school. It’s over in like, New Jersey, and one of the things they found was, like, the guys who could do the most chin ups and pull ups also tended to be the fastest sprinters. And obviously, we’re looking at endurance, not sprinting, but it still comes back to the same thing where those last do have a big factor. So if we’re getting stronger on chin ups, or at the very least, like, lat pull downs and other similar exercises that does carry over to your running as well. So it’s, I think a lot of runners get the idea, like, they only need to do, like, abs and legs as like, that upper body factors in, like, it all. It’s all part of the picture.

Paulie Campbell 18:52 Yeah. I mean, it’s kind of like nutrition, right? Like it all, like, the information is still the same. It’s just slightly different. Like, it applies to you, where you’re at, in your training protocol and in your, you know, life phase of your lifestyle. But like, overarching message is, like, you need to be strong in all areas of your of your body, like you have to. I mean, I’ve seen some really incredible distance runners, like trail runners, Road Runners, and they, I’d be surprised if they could do a pull up, you know. And I’m just thinking to myself, if they actually strength trained, they would be like exponent like, strength training just doesn’t make you a little bit better, it makes you exponentially better.

Ryan Jore 18:57 Well and it’s funny. But one thing I didn’t consider when I was writing out the questions is, especially for a trail runner, you want that upper body strength, because at some point as a trail runner, you’re going to have a slip and fall, like, at some point you’re going to trip on something, and like, you want to have that resilience when you do land so you’re not getting injured. Like, there is something to that too. It’s, again, wouldn’t be the main reason we’d be doing upper body training, but it doesn’t hurt either.

Paulie Campbell 20:21 Yeah and if you have a little bit more muscle, I mean, you have a little bit more support, you know, I fall plenty of times, and falling is absolutely terrible, but I do think the rotational work played a huge role, because I was able to, you know, not wreck my back, and I was able to, you know. If you think you’re going to run and you’re not going to fall, you’re sadly mistaken.

Paulie Campbell 20:21 And again, going back to one of the ones we talked about earlier, as far as, like, reasons why we would strength train for endurance stuff, they said one of the main ones we talked about is just those hills. Like, people who are stronger don’t get beat up by hills nearly the to the tree that like, there are, like, people who are really fast over a flat line, then you watch them go up a hill, and they just get absolutely tanked because they have no strength. It matters a ton.

Paulie Campbell 20:24 And in Helena, we have a we have a really good trail system, and there’s really not a beginner trail like most trail heads, you’re starting off by climbing. You know, it might be 100 or 200 feet. It might be 1000 feet. You know, it’s like, there’s just one route we do, and it’s in the first two and a half miles. There’s like 1400 vertical.

Ryan Jore 20:24 So the last I was gonna go over as far as reasons we want to strength train for endurance and as my AirPod tries to fall out of my ear. But one of the ones is speed. People don’t think about that enough, in that a stronger runner also means that you’re able to put more power into the ground with every single step you take, which then carries over to you being faster. I know, I didn’t really make that a question. I kind of just made a statement, then paused.

Paulie Campbell 20:24 it’s all right. Well, I know what you’re talking about. And you know, it’s been, it’s been kind of enjoyable, like we’ll do some single egg plios, double egg plows. We’ll use the sled a ton. The slide is another thing that you’ll love to hate going through power phases, speed phases, those types of, you know, exercises, but it has made a big difference.

Ryan Jore 20:24 It’s funny how often I get runners where we cut back mileage and we just start strength training. Well, a lot of times we’ll find that they actually just get faster initially, just from adding in that strength work, like they’re actually doing less mileage and getting faster, which, again, obviously a lot of people run strictly for enjoyment, but it’s like, if you want to be faster, cutting back a little bit of that running and just replacing with even just bare bones strength training, almost always have yet to see it make anyone worse. It almost always at least see at least a bit of an improvement. While we’re adding in that injury resiliency, we’re also putting in, like I said, just making hills less miserable.

Paulie Campbell 20:24 Yeah and I wanted to say, like, I collected some information. You know, I use a Garmin Phoenix nine or eight, or whatever it is at this point, but there’s a reservoir in Helena, and it’s a five mile loop, and we use that for training last year quite a bit, and I can’t remember the exact time difference, but we did it again this year, and I wanted to compare and contrast to when I was, like, first few months in the running, like maybe four or five to, you know, over a year. And I want to say, like, my the overall time improved by like, three to five minutes.

Ryan Jore 20:24 Which is big over that distance, yeah. Paulie Campbell 20:32 Yeah, it was pretty significant. I’ll have to go back. It might I think it was, yeah, it was between three and five minutes. So that was like, when you see that information, you’re like, you know, you’re doing something correctly. And for me, you know you talked about, like, people who run a lot, and then you talk about them cutting down their mileage and adding strength training. For me, it was the opposite. I was cutting back on my strength training and increasing my mileage to have a similar impact, right? So it’s you have to find the right dose of each to which you can recover. And, you know, I’d like, you know, because if you’re constantly getting injured, that’s telling you something is not going well. There’s a hole in the, you know, in the tire, and it’s in, you’re just putting air in to go out the other side, essentially.

Ryan Jore 24:07 Which is fine, because it comes back to what we’re saying in the beginning here. All the training is so similar. It’s still always just figuring out what the individual inputs need to be to get the output we’re looking at. And it’s, I said, some runners need more money, some need less, some need more strength training. Some need lessons. It’s all about kind of just playing with things and tinkering and figuring out, okay, what are we responding to, what are we not responding well to, and then just adding some trafficking based on results. Like, you know, this is why I like looking at training as a weekly thing is, like, we look at what’s working, we look at what’s not, and we adjust based on that. Like, I’m not writing any plan and pen, I’m writing in a pencil, because we’re going to make adjustments at some point, whether it’s up or down or cutting something.

Paulie Campbell 24:42 Yeah, I mean, there was an exercise week or two ago that I messaged, you know, I put a note in there. I’m like, This is not driving with my elbow. So we changed it.

Ryan Jore 24:56 Exactly. It’s like we didn’t change the whole program. It’s like we found the weak point took it out, move on.

Paulie Campbell 25:01 And it wasn’t like, I didn’t want to do like, because there, there’s some, I think sometimes we can call in this paradox of like, I don’t want to do that exercise just because I don’t like it.

Ryan Jore 25:10 Yeah

Paulie Campbell 25:10 And you thinking it’s difficult, is the reason it’s not like, it probably means you should lean into that a little bit more. You know? Unless there’s pain associated, right? There’s different reasons to avoid exercises.

Ryan Jore 25:22 Always tell people that, like, say, like, it’s personal training for a reason. So I actually do tell people, like, if you don’t like an exercise now, again, like, I said, it’s different, it’s just because you suck at it. Like, if you suck at it, okay, yeah, we’re probably going to lean into that a little bit. But someone doesn’t like it because they just genuinely don’t like the exercise. It’s like, I would rather give them something they like a little bit more, because I find people are going to push harder on an exercise. Harder on an exercise that they enjoy versus when they don’t. So it’s like, okay, if they don’t like walking lunges, but they like reverse lunges. Like, well, let’s do reverse lunges. It doesn’t make that big of a difference in terms of what we’re targeting tissue wise, but if it gets more effort, I feel like that’s always going to drive better results.

Paulie Campbell 25:58 Yeah, it creates more adherence and and buy in and value.

Ryan Jore 26:02 You can ask your coach to change too often. I feel like too where it’s like, okay, calm down. Like, sometimes you just need to run out and exercise for a few weeks. But yeah, sometimes things just don’t agree with the person, like you said, if it’s a pain issue, then obviously we’re either changing the load or we’re changing some sort of parameter to find something that’s not causing pain. Exactly. Last question, because I didn’t really have much for, like, quick hitters on these today. But just what do you think is the most overrated exercise for running? This is gonna be, like all the exercises you hate here. That’s fine,

Paulie Campbell 26:36 Yeah, but overrated that that’s different. I’m going to need 30 seconds. Honestly, I’m going to say core.

Ryan Jore 26:47 Okay, yeah.

Paulie Campbell 26:49 And let me, let me back that up with

Ryan Jore 26:54 Before you get every core class hating on you for that.

Paulie Campbell 26:56 Yeah. you know, core is important. I think it’s overrated. Because, I think, based on, I think, Ryan’s experience, in my experience, it seems to be a very popular muscle group, in lieu of neglecting other muscle groups that would benefit that individual more, yep, so.

Ryan Jore 27:20 It’s fine. It’s like we just keep tying back to every conversation I had in class today. But similar, I just had a girl saying how she like and she’s been with me now for probably six, eight months, and she was noticing how, like she says, just feels like her abs are more defined, and it’s not even anything nutrition, and she actually does less ab work now than she’s ever done. But it’s like, we’re getting stronger on back squats. We’re getting stronger on deadlifts. We’re getting stronger on stuff that carries into everything. And then, yeah, we’re still doing some direct out work on the side, but it’s like we’re using it as more like, you know, the the garnish on top of the dish. We’re not just making a whole dish out of it, exactly, and that’s my last cooking analogy for today. But if people want to get a hold of you, where can they find you?

Paulie Campbell 27:57 Oh they can find me on Instagram. It’s coach.paulie_inc.

Ryan Jore 28:05 Not 406.Thor anymore.

Paulie Campbell 28:08 No, that one’s gone

Ryan Jore 28:10 Little more professional

Paulie Campbell 28:13 Although now people call me, well, I’m wearing a Thor t-shirt, so that’s kind of ironic, but a client got it for me, actually, and or you can go to thebar406, that’s if you find me my personal page. I usually just put all my information on that page for coaching, and I’ll sometimes collaborate with my with my business page, but that would be the best way. Or if you already follow Ryan, look at his stories. I tag him occasionally, and or search for his 10 friends that he has on there.

Ryan Jore 28:45 Thanks to man, we’ll talk to you soon.

Paulie Campbell 28:48 Thanks, Ryan, it’s a pleasure.

Ryan Jore 28:50 Thanks. Alright guys, thanks for checking in. We’ll see you next episode.